Tuesday, August 14, 2012

Proof, Again, That Trion Listens to Their Players

Despite fears my writing would be both sloppy and spastic, I rapidly fired up Blogger this morning in response to something recently witnessed: Trion, yet again, listening to their players.  If you haven't been on the PTS forums of late, this thread stands as a spectacle of admiration and trust for a company that truly "gets it".  For those without the time or desire to read through myriad pages in a thread, I'll give you the headline straight away:  Trion plans to completely normalize PvP in Rift.  Simply typing that sentence almost brings a gleeful tear to my eye.  As I read Elrar's post, I was struck with simultaneous disbelief and exuberance.

As I've argued in some previous posts, the PvP gear grind in Rift is atrociously long.  Once you hit 50, all your work is still ahead of you in terms of reaching a level of gear that one could deem you "competitive" in PvP.  The math supports this fact.  Experience supports this fact and, what's more is, that I'm going through it right now on my freshly-50 Warrior.  I'm seeing it first hand and it's absolutely not fun in the slightest.  I even went as far as to ask the Warriors in my guild for a spec that would bring high survivability while allowing me to "contribute meaningfully" in PvP while I'm still gearing out.  The result was a sword and board spec that is a mere annoyance to casters.  I still die in approximately 3 seconds.  I still do absolutely no damage to my targets and even the proverbial "bread and butter" of the spec (draining mana, interrupting casts, CCing) seems almost completely ineffective.  Being right in the middle of this painful grind, I'm a walking, talking advertisement for PvP normalization.  Hopefully this adequately illustrates my simultaneous relief and joy when the aforementioned thread hit the boards.

So what is PvP normalization?  It can mean many things but the end result aimed for my any attempt at normalization is balanced, competitive PvP for all right out of the gates.  That last part is worth repeating: balanced, competitive PvP for all right out of the gates.  It defies all reason that anyone would oppose such an advancement yet we have precisely that occurring from a vocal minority on the boards whom believe Rift PvP should be about gear progression where the reward for "putting in the time" should be the ability to "dominate those still putting in theirs".  Advocates of this position won't phrase it that way and they'll fight you tooth and nail about the fact that their gear provides an almost insurmountable advantage in PvP but, as they say about Science and that which applies here as well, the good thing about it is that it's true whether you believe it or not.

Rift's take on PvP normalization, at this time, is straightforward and strictly aimed at providing an opportunity to collect data and measure the effectiveness of such a system.  In short, PA will continue to provide its benefits but gear will not be considered in instanced PvP.  Prior to the effects of PA being calculated, all stats will be set to competitive levels for all players regardless of gear.  Your health, attack power, spell power and more will all be set for you.  Again, I can't explain adequately with words how excited I am for this change.

Of course the counter arguments abound, one more ridiculous than the next.  I've already read countless posts arguing against such a system claiming that open-world PvP would be ruined under this rule set.  The irony here is that normalizing open-world PvP is fundamentally impossible when you actually stop and consider it so the entire argument never really gets off the ground.  Rest assured, Trion is referring to "instanced" PvP for normalization as there truly is no way to "normalize" open-world PvP effectively.

Another popular argument is the tired and worn assertion that if you normalize PvP then PvE gear with procs becomes king of the proverbial hill.  In a game where weapon procs are regularly just a chance to deal negligible chunks of damage, I would personally be fine without even considering this edge case yet Trion is already a step ahead of the ball and has stated they are ensuring they handle edge cases such as this.  Truly, this argument has no leg to stand on either.

Then there are those who claim that Rift was implemented as a "gear-based, progression MMO" and therefore normalizing PvP should be off the table.  Were there ever a more asinine argument within the confines of Rift, I've not seen it.  Attempting to argue this point would be like arguing that an Italian restaurant should never put anything on their menu that isn't Italian regardless of how good the dish may be.  If it's good, and the people want it, then why wouldn't you?  There is nothing preventing such an addition other than your own imaginary allegiances.  Normalized, competitive PvP and gear-based, PvE progression can quite easily and happily coexist in this wonderful game and it's long overdue that people begin realizing this.  I invite anyone who witnesses a shallow and fragile argument thrown out by those opposing such a system for PvP to fire back and do so firmly.  

So how would I normalize PvP in Rift?  Aside from the obvious evening out of stats across the board, I would do the following:

  1. Keep PvP gear in the game so that players whom prefer to only PvP still have gear enough to be effective in IAs, dungeons, and more
  2. Disable all procs in PvP
  3. Disable all synergy crystals in PvP
  4. Get rid of valor and vengeance alike and put a blanket damage reduction in PvP
  5. If necessary, also put a blanket healing reduction (or increase depending on what's needed) in PvP
  6. Expand the mercenary system to queue players regardless of "faction" but implement a feature that allows players to queue only for their own faction.  This, of course, would lead to slightly longer queue times for them but it would be their choice.
Let's usher in an era of balanced, competitive PvP in Rift.  Let's pull in those subscriptions from avid PvPers that otherwise would never be.  Most importantly, let's show Trion our support for actually listening to their player base.  Rest assured that the feedback offered thus far on Trion's attempt at PvP normalization has been overwhelmingly positive but never forget that it sometimes only takes a vocal minority to ruin progress for the whole.


15 comments:

  1. I would be one less sub if this happens. I love PvP but I also like character progression. If the majority truly want this, so be it, enjoy. I am not one of them and will be moving on.

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  2. I would quit if this happens. I PvP to be better than the guy who plays PvP for 10 mins a week. The author here wants a total gimp that stands naked (I know not naked but still same difference) to be my equal.... I thought I would never have to go back to wow for my PvP fix but ugh.. damn you trion and you whiners.

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  3. So when I hit 50 I should be 'normalized' for PvE and be ready for the upper tier raids?

    Come on there are ways of fixing this.

    1) lessen PR grind to hit pr36 then make it a grind.

    2) increase favor cap and let players bank favor on the way to 50.

    3) Allow players to earn prestige on way to 50 and hit pr10 before lv50.

    simple and a HUGE help without making a bunch of us leave.

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  4. Trion nerfs favor and perstige and forces CQ to be a player vs. extractor game... now wants to normalize and destroy PvP grind because players cant keep up? They are using selective hearing then. How is nerfing favor/prest gain helping this at all, its making it worse, yet they did it by listening to who?? the DEV who came up wit hthe CQ idea and was bitching that the players were not doing what he/she designd CQ for.

    If CQ was still zerg vs. zerg then there would be plenty of favor and pres to go around, lol.

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  5. I applaud the efforts of the players that PvP so much to get the top gear and stay competitive with the other players of the same mentality. I also think it's wrong to trivialize their efforts by normalizing PvP. However, I do like the idea of normalization. Players new to the game would actually be able to live longer than 3 seconds and, just maybe, feel like they are contributing to the fight.

    So how do you not trivialize the PvP vets but still make it appealing to the new/casual players? It's a very tough question to answer and many variables come into play. One way to do it would be to have brackets of war fronts based on PvP rank. One could exist that is normalized, then have brackets for rank ranges so the hard core PvP folks can still stay competitive.

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  6. Horrible, horrible idea. There is better ways to go about this. Not to mention the tests were an actual failure in my eyes.

    Better off giving everyone max gear upon entering pvp. Or jut giving one set of gear.

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  7. I find it truly hilarious that those who were so vehemently against any reduction in the Rift PvP grind, even going so far as to deny a grind existed at all, are now attempting to barter with Trion to avoid leveling the playing field by suggesting they drastically lessen the PvP grind. How quickly true colors shine through!

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  8. Horrible idea and i would be moving on straight away if they every implemented it.

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  9. PVP normalization is a step in the right direction. In order for it to work, they need to be committed to fixing the glaring class imbalances that currently exist.

    I wholly support this step, but only as a step and not an end state. In order to fix PVP, here is a list of what is absolutely needed.

    Here is my suggestion on how to fix PVP:

    1) Normalize damage output
    1-alt) If not, then provide a SINGLE tier of PVP gear that players can obtain with a modest time investment in PVP play.

    2) Balance classes around normalized damage output (or single set of gear). I define balance here to mean: every class has at least 1 soul specification that can defeat the soul specification of another class 1v1. That means that there should be at least 1 warrior, rogue and mage spec that can defeat a healing cleric, 1 warrior, rogue and cleric spec that can defeat a chlorodom, etc.

    3) Remove the 50% healing reduction mechanics and passive procs and replace with active abilities that reduce healing 25%. Adjust PVP healing accordingly. (i.e. do what WOW did)

    4) Provide a means for teams to compete in PVP. Create special, competitive versions of Black Garden, Codex, and Library for 5v5 and 10v10 games. To ensure more players are on and competing, restrict availability of those special competitive versions to certain times/days, much like the alternative warfront weekends. Rank teams periodically and provide fun rewards for the best teams.

    5) Provide PVP trinkets, crystals and essences which provide small, unique benefits and/or benefits to certain abilities that come at the cost of another. For example, "Crystal X: Increases the healing received by Vampiric Munitions to 50%. Increases the cooldown of your Retreat and On the Double by 10 seconds"

    6) Provide PVP ranks that allow players to purchase gear that is useful for non-raid PVE.

    7) Provide PVP ranks that allow players to purchase cool cosmetic gear and fun items like banners, capes, mounts, etc.

    8) Fix crowd control.
    8a) Mirror the diminishing returns system in WoW.
    8b) Mirror the CC category system in WoW.
    8c) Remove all AOE crowd control abilities and/or convert to single target crowd control.
    8d) Remove Controlled Opportunity and Swift Control and any other ability which increases damage output as a direct result of using crowd control or attacking a person that is CC'd.
    8e) Add a passive damage reduction to all people under the effects of CC.
    8f) Add more disarm abilities.

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  10. Pff this one nub cry about gear advantage in pvp ? well i play 5 hours a day from 1 year so u want to be equal in a fight with me when u play 1 hour a week ????

    GO PLAY QUAKE ARENA if u want that boy. Rift is a mmorpg with gear progression and time invested in character.

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  11. I've played Rift about 4 months now and I know the PvP grind all too well. I've definitely suffered at the hands of players in max gear with double my stats, often hurling personal insults after fights I stood no chance in.

    In spite of that, I've grinded on and have reached a gear level where I can return the favor. Some of the worst offenders (i.e. e-thugs) I've paid special attention to, if you know what I mean. This is the part of the game I REALLY enjoy and I don't want it to go away.

    It's obvious which side of the fence you're on, but you're using a broad brush to paint everybody who disagrees with you as an online bully wanting to keep their gear advantage. Some of us enjoy bringing the fight to them on their own terms.

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  12. @SaiguruJin

    I'm P43 atm and am fully geared. Further, I have 100+ days played on that character. I am not some "nub" crying about gear advantages in PvP. I'm someone WITH the gear advantage pointing out how it shouldn't exist in human versus human combat. Furthermore, I'm not alone. Quite a few high-end PvPers have already shown their support for normalization.

    @Anonymous (above comment)
    I may very well be painting with too broad a brush and I do understand how fun it can be to take out those who "bullied" you during your gear grind.

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  13. The big problem with the change is the very nature of MMORPG's. I realise that the gear grind is horrible; even as a Rank48 atm, I have a looong way to grind to become fully geared. However, one of the most driving forces behind MMORPGs is the way you can put in time, and eventually build your character up. 'Hell, I got smashed that last game, but I earned some favor, so I can buy that piece of gear, so next time, I'll be better.' This is what drive players, be it in PvP or PvE. Without it, it removes the special nature of MMORPG's. I cannot see it doing anything but making PvP a trivial side event to PvE... which is what Trion are meant to be avoiding. We need serious PvP, not to dismiss it entirely. Normalised Arena? That could have its merits.

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    1. I'm inclined to disagree with you on that, Vindexin. For example, I PvE without a care in the world for the gear being dropped. We use a loot council system wherein a group of officers decides who is to receive a piece of gear. To be considered, you simply link what you are wearing in that slot into raid chat and the officers will discuss. Most of the time, many of our raid members, myself included, don't even bother linking because we truly couldn't care any less about the gear. We are there to defeat the encounters, see the content and, at the end of the day, walk around Meridian with our collective heads held high for overcoming Rusila to be 5/8 ID or for finally getting to Phase 3 Laethys.

      In WoW, and I mention this not to toot my own horn but rather because it's necessary for the example, I would have been what you would call a "high-end" PvPer being a six-time Gladiator, a high-ranking Rated BG player and one a Warlord (didn't get High Warlord) back under the old PvP grind system. Yet the gear was so insignificant to me the entire time. It was a means to an end. I was in it for the title: Gladiator. There was something very cool and very prestigious about flying around Orgrimmar on my Relentless Gladiator's Frost Wyrm. That is what I PvP for: the fame, the skill, the camaraderie, and the prestige. The gear is meaningless to me.

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    2. Fair points, well made. However I do have to say... you are not every Rift-player. Neither am I. I realise that you enjoy content for its worth, and you should be lauded for that, however, many people play to get progressively better characters. I'm actually closer to you than them in that regard, but I do like playing Devil's Advocate. Now, people that play for the fun of it will enjoy the normalisation; those that play to get an edge over others will not. This is a guess, but I dare say those in the latter group outweigh those in the former; and if they choose not to PvP because of this, we all suffer as a consequence.

      Whatever the future, you have to admit that a solution to Rift's PvP is not so simple as turning off gear, or whatever fix they try to do. To please everyone, it's gonna have to be quite the complex fix.

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